The Spirit Behind the Star
An Interview with Steven Seagal
by Tashi Grady Powers

From the print edition of The Enlightening Times 1997 and the Los Angeles Whole Life Times Cover Story. Here is the interview.

I had the sublime good fortune to meet Steven Seagal in the early 1980s before he became a movie star. Even then his presence was magnetic. I found him to be a beautiful human being who spoke softly, seriously and profoundly. And yet his heart seemed light and joyous.

I met Steven again in 1996, after his many successful movies had propelled him to stellar star status, and once again, I found him to be luminous and aware, a publicly charismatic man who privately is deeply spiritual.

We spoke again recently. As usual, Steven didn't want to talk about the "boring subject of himself;" rather, he wanted to reflect on some of the questions contemporary spirituality poses to a Westerner.

Steven Seagal was born with a spiritual consciousness and for many years studied various spiritual paths. During a trip to Japan in the late '60s, he visited monasteries and studied Buddhism, and began Zen sitting meditation. He also developed his physical skills through the martial arts and is considered an Aikido master.

Interview with Steven Seagal

How is it you actually became a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner?

When I was in Japan sitting in the monasteries, studying Buddhism and medicine, there were Tibetan Lamas who came for medical treatment because they had been tortured by the Chinese. Although I spoke Japanese, I didn't speak Tibetan, yet I had a better connection with the Tibetan Lamas than with the Japanese teachers with whom I had been studying for a long time. We started communicating while I was treating them, and I began to receive teachings from them.

So how did you start your practice?

Like anyone else. Slowly.

Can you tell us about your current practice?

If people are interested in what practices I do, I will not talk about secret mantras, secret tantras or secret practices of any kind. What I will talk about is compassion. That is what I want to practice. That is what I want to study, and what I want to live. I like to talk about compassion, the fact that we are all one, and that we should all live as one people helping each other.

In teaching Buddhism, many people can mouth the words, the teachings and the scriptures which have been around for thousands of years. Anyone can memorize the teachings; that does not make for a great teacher. A great teacher is someone who can somehow transfer the knowledge to the student and convert it into wisdom.

My teacher, Kalu Rinpoche, depicted the Chinese as friends to the Tibetans, inasmuch as they facilitated Tibetan Buddhism's movement into the West.

In my humble opinion, what Kalu Rinpoche meant is that our enemies are in fact our greatest teachers. And certainly that is one of the greatest lessons. Very few people can, in an instant, convert the onslaught of hoards of enemies and the horrific deeds that they do into compassion and forgiveness, and then learn the lesson that they are being taught. That is certainly something I strive for, as does any other Lama I know.

Do you have any political views about the Chinese?

What I try to do is to convert the political dogma into spiritual teachings. But I don't think anyone was given a human body to allow people behaving in a demonic manner to take his precious human rebirth, to be murdered by them. I also don't think this would protect the dharma (teachings of Lord Buddha), which I think that anyone who loves the path should do.

If there are non-virtuous acts being committed, we should never put ourselves in harm's way, and we should do everything we can to remove ourselves from a situation like that. I, for example, am first a man of peace, then a warrior when I have to be to protect the dharma. I have a style of warring that does not include punching, kicking, shooting, stabbing or anything aggressive like that. Rather it directs the aggressive energy and movement and power of an attacker back to him.

What do you see in our future as Buddhism enters the West?

Religion should be something that helps people develop and purify themselves to be better human beings, to treat others with kindness, ease the suffering of others, and make the world a better place. If that is Catholicism, Hinduism or Islam, I am happy. Those religions which damn you for not being of their religion will eventually turn back on themselves. In the greater way there should be tolerance for all paths, in the understanding that they probably all lead to the same place.

When I look into the future, I am hoping for all people that we see more tolerance, a beginning of growing closer together in an understanding that we are all the same, all related. With this inner connectedness, karma has occurred. In order to learn the lessons from the teachings, all circumstances, from our greatest friends to our greatest enemies, should be viewed as our teachers.

In terms of the Buddhist dharma and fundamentalism, one of the things I admire about the Tibetans is that when they brought back the teachings from India they immediately put the teachings into Tibetan. I teach in English because I mostly work with people who speak English as their primary language. Many of us have had to study Buddhism in Tibetan and in Sanskrit. I don't feel any sacred doctrine should be kept in only one language, but rather should be spread throughout the world.

Merging quantum physics and metaphysics gives us statements like, "The Truth is not discovered, it is made." What do you think of the merging of science with spirituality?

Within each man, no matter what it is he is studying, if he has the karma to take whatever he is "on" and have that lead him into a path that is going to teach him some of the greater truths, then I am happy. But one of the dangers of quantum physics may be that those who think they cannot understand the true nature of the mind use their intellectual reckoning, circumventing the process of letting go, which must occur in order to transcend grasping; i.e., knowledge has to transform into wisdom.

Don't the Tibetans tell you that the mind cannot understand, only the heart can comprehend the nature of reality?

That's right.

What do you think of all the problems in the New Age communities? What is so often demonstrated is not love, but isolationism and fundamentalism very well disguised behind enlightened New Age lingo. So much corruption has given me a sense of fragility about the dharma in the West.
It is increasingly evident that the students, the communities and even the teachers are still flawed, even if the teachings are pure!

All human beings are born with poisons and this develops into a vicious circle that originates in suffering and perpetuates suffering. Even the "enlightened" ones still have poisons, just to a lesser degree. The antidotes for the poisons that we as human beings are born with, and are indoctrinated into through our Judaic Christian culture in the West, are the sublime path and the sublime teacher. The answer I see is to find a truly sublime teacher with an unbroken lineage who can help us stay on the path and purify our obscurations (veils of ignorance). That is our only hope. That is what I place my faith in-the Buddha (enlightening example), the dharma (teachings), and the sangha (spiritual friends)-knowing within all of that there is an answer for a way to prosper and for protection along the way.

What do you think is needed to help us bridge these gaps?

What is needed is more teachers who speak English well and have higher levels of education in both the East and the West. Because I was partially raised in the Orient, studying Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism has given me an understanding of the older traditional ways. Therefore I feel very strongly that the traditional teachings should be protected and upheld. For example there are some Western "teachers" who are preaching the diminishing role of the guru and advocating the alteration or destruction of a traditional path. I feel like this is pouring poison in our own source of pure water.
It has helped me tremendously to have had one foot in each world. This bridge is what is needed.

And yet aren't bridges tricky things? In an essay by Richard Rorty contained in the book "The Truth about the Truth," there is a story about an American anthropologist who visited Japan at Christmas and noticed that the stores had begun to display some of the symbols of Christmas. When he wandered into a large Tokyo department store he saw a Christmas display that prominently featured Santa Claus... nailed to a cross.

Yes, I have noticed this type of thing. I did a huge event where 20,000 people were present, and one of the interviewers asked me on camera, "I understand that you were recognized as one of the Dalai Lamas." This is a good example of the natural confusion that happens when one culture enters another.

What's ahead in your professional life? Can you tell us anything about your upcoming projects?

I have an anti-war movie called House of Thunder that is scheduled to shoot in the Brazilian rainforest. I'm also completing a music CD.

Hollywood and spirituality seem worlds apart from each other. How do you mix Buddhism with your film career?

How do you mix soup and salad?

If you were on a desert island and there were no teachers left and you were it, do you think you could gain enlightenment from within?

Absolutely, because I think we all have the Buddha nature within us. Is it more difficult? Yes, it is more difficult and it is slower. I am lucky because I have already in my life had these seeds planted and given to me. Whether I understand them now or later is not important. It is important that I remain on the path and that eventually I get there.

...that is the end of this interview given to Tashi in 1997 by Steven Seagal.

About Steven Seagal's Status as a Reincarnated Tulku
(tulku means reincarnation in an awakened state)

While it is generally the case that tulkus are recognized early in life, this is not always so. For example, the great master Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö remained unrecognized for many years while an ordained monk at Kathok Monastery. He was over 30 years old and had completed his monastic education when he was recognized and enthroned as the first reincarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Wangpo. In his case, he had devoted his life to study and practice, and was thus prepared to take on the full responsibilities of being a tulku at the time of his recognition.

The recognition of a tulku who has been born in the West is especially likely to occur later in his lifetime, because it will generally take much longer for all the conditions necessary for such a recognition to come together.

It is not uncommon for there to be a lengthy span of time between the death of a master and the appearance of his or her subsequent reincarnation. There was a 130 year hiatus between the death of the First Pema Norbu in 1757 and the birth of the Second Pema Norbu in 1887. This is common in all traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. As for how these gaps come about, while tulkus are understood to have vowed to be continually reborn to help incarnate beings, it is not necessary for them to take rebirth in a continuous sequence of lives in this world. It is believed that they can be reborn in other world systems where they continue their compassionate activities, returning only later to this world system.

Seagal has been recognized as a reincarnation of a 17th century tulku who founded a small monastery called Gegön Gompa near his native village of Phene in the Kutse area of Derge in Eastern Tibet. The monastery still exists, though no monks live there now, and is well known in the area for its beautiful religious wall paintings.

There is surprising humility in this box office superstar. He sees himself as an artist and is grateful for his ability to bring people happiness and joy through his movies, as well as possibly serving as an inspiration to the path of contemplation. He helps many charities and is especially touched by the needs of children and Tibetan refugees.

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Statement by H.H. Penor Rinpoche

Regarding the Recognition of Steven Seagal as a Reincarnation of the Treasure Revealer Chungdrag Dorje of Palyul Monastery

In February of 1997 I recognized my student, Steven Seagal, as a reincarnation (tulku) of the treasure revealer Chungdrag Dorje. Since there has been some confusion and uncertainty as to what this means, I am writing to clarify this situation.

Traditionally a tulku is considered to be a reincarnation of a Buddhist master who, out of his or her compassion for the suffering of sentient beings, has vowed to take rebirth to help all beings attain enlightenment. To fulfill this aspiration, a tulku will generally need to go through the complete process of recognition, enthronement and training.

Formal recognition generally occurs soon after a tulku has been identified, but only after other important lineage masters have been consulted. The newly identified tulku does not take on any formal responsibilities at the time of recognition.

The next step of enthronement may or may not occur for a tulku, depending on the circumstances. Enthronement formally invests the tulku with the responsibility of furthering the activities associated with their particular tulku lineage. Thus, if there are specific teachings and practice traditions associated with their lineage, and if there are perhaps monks, nuns, monasteries, retreat centers, lay communities and so forth for which the tulku traditionally takes responsibility, then the tulku is formally vested with those responsibilities at the time of enthronement. In the event that an enthronement ceremony is conducted, it may take place soon after recognition or some years later. If the tulku is too young to assume their responsibilities upon enthronement, others may be entrusted to take on those responsibilities until the tulku is ready.

Finally, a tulku needs to complete a formal course of training which includes years of study and meditation. This training reawakens the tulku's powers of insight and compassion and develops their skillful means for helping others. It is only after such training that a tulku is ready to take on the role of a teacher.

In the case of Steven Seagal, he has been formally recognized as a tulku, but has not been officially enthroned. He has also not undergone the lengthy process of study and practice necessary to fully realize what I view as his potential for helping others. When I first met him, I felt he had the special qualities of a tulku within him. According to the Great Vehicle (Mahayana) of the Buddhist tradition, all beings have within them the potential for becoming Buddhas. With Steven Seagal I perceived this potential to be particularly strong as accords with being a tulku. In the past, whenever I have met someone that I feel is a tulku, I have always consulted with other masters of the Nyingma lineage such as Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and other senior lineage holders. Similarly, after my experience of meeting Steven Seagal, I consulted with another important Nyingma master and with his concurrence, recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku.

With regard to the particular circumstances of Steven Seagal's recognition, while it is generally the case that tulkus are recognized young in life, this is not always so. For example, the great master Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö remained unrecognized for many years while he was an ordained monk at Kathok Monastery. He was over 30 years old, perhaps 35, and had completed his monastic education when he was recognized and enthroned as the first reincarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Wangpo. In his case, he had devoted his life to study and practice and was thus prepared for taking on the full responsibilities of being a tulku at the time of his recognition.

Prior to my recognition of Steven Seagal I myself recognized another tulku late in his life. Kalsang Yeshe Rinpoche, a monk originally from the Palyul branch monastery of Shibo in Tibet and later at Namdroling Monastery in India, was recognized and enthroned in 1983 at the age of 51. He too had spent his life studying Buddhism and meditating before he was recognized as a tulku.

Because he had cultivated his potential through many years of diligent study and meditation, he was able to become a teacher and is currently the head of our Palyul Center in Singapore. So, in short, in the Tibetan tradition there is nothing unusual about recognizing a tulku late in their life. In fact, the recognition of a tulku who has been born in the West is especially likely to occur later in their lifetime because it will generally take much longer for all the conditions that are necessary for such a recognition to come together.

Steven Seagal has been recognized as a reincarnation of the 17th century hidden treasure revealer (tertön) Chungdrag Dorje (khyung brag rdo rje) of Palyul Monastery. Chungdrag Dorje founded a small monastery called Gegön Gompa near his native village of Phene in the Kutse area of Derge in Eastern Tibet. Though there are no monks there now, the small monastery building still exists and is well known in the area for its beautiful religious wall paintings.

As a tertön, Chungdrag Dorje rediscovered teachings and sacred objects hidden by Padmasambhava in the eighth century. Such treasures (terma) were concealed with the intention that they would be discovered and revealed at a later date when the circumstances were such that they would be of particular benefit to sentient beings.

Texts of the teachings discovered by Chungdrag Dorje have apparently not survived the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Sacred objects discovered by Chungdrag Dorje include an unusually shaped bell, a phurba (ritual dagger), the syllable 'A' carved in stone and pigments used to create the sacred wall paintings in his monastery mentioned above. Several of these objects have been preserved and are still kept at Palyul Monastery today.

In the Nyingma tradition it is said that there are a hundred main treasure revealers and an even greater number of secondary treasure revealers. Among the latter it is not uncommon for the line of their teachings to eventually lapse. Though they were beneficial during the time they flourished, for various reasons some tertön teaching lineages have ceased. This would seem to be the case with Chungdrag Dorje.

Now with regard to Steven Seagal, he was born centuries after the death of Chungdrag Dorje. It is not uncommon for there to be a lengthy span of time between the death of a master and the appearance of his or her subsequent reincarnation. My own tulku lineage is an example of this. There was a 130 years hiatus between the death of the First Pema Norbu in 1757 and the birth of the Second Pema Norbu in 1887.

This is common in all the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. As for how these gaps come about, while tulkus are understood to have vowed to be continually reborn to help beings, it is not necessary for them to take rebirth in a continuous sequence of lives in this world. It is believed that they can be reborn in other world systems where they continue their compassionate activities, returning only later to this world system. This is how such lapses in tulku lineages are understood in Tibet.

As for Steven Seagal's movie career, my concern is with the qualities I experienced within him which relate to his potential for benefiting others and not with the conventional details of his life which are wholly secondary.

Some people think that because Steven Seagal is always acting in violent movies, how can he be a true Buddhist? Such movies are for temporary entertainment and do not relate to what is real and important. It is the view of the Great Vehicle of Buddhism that compassionate beings take rebirth in all walks of life to help others. Any life condition can be used to serve beings and thus, from this point of view, it is possible to be both a popular movie star and a tulku. There is no inherent contradiction in this possibility.

As the head of the Palyul lineage of the Nyingma School and more recently as the Head of the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, I have had the responsibility of recognizing numerous tulkus. The first time I recognized a tulku, I was ten years old.

This tulku was the incarnation of the great Khenpo Ngaga. He is still living in Eastern Tibet and continues to strive, to this day, to promote the welfare of others. Since that time until now I have recognized over one hundred tulkus. In addition I have overseen the training and enthronement of over thirty khenpos (learned scholars) and I am responsible for the welfare of the many thousands of monks belonging to the Palyul tradition.

My concern in seeking to nurture these tulkus, khenpos, monks, as well as sincere lay people, has been to benefit all sentient beings. It is out of this intention that I have recognized tulkus in the past and will continue to recognize them in the future as appropriate.

In the case of my student Steven Seagal, I initiated the decision to recognize him as a tulku based on my own feelings about him. Neither I nor any of my monasteries have received or sought any sort of substantial donation from him. What is important to me are the qualities I have seen in my student. For this reason I feel confident that recognizing him as a tulku will be of benefit to others as well as to the Buddha dharma.

Whenever there is a new incarnation born or recognized, I personally feel very happy because it is like you have one more brother or sister. I take delight in such occasions as they seek to further compassionate activity for others. Being recognized as a tulku is an acknowledgment of one's potential to help others.

Such recognition does not mean that one is already a realized teacher. The degree to which tulkus have been able to actualize and utilize their potential depends upon how they have been able to use their past circumstances and how they currently use their present circumstances to develop their potential.

Each tulku must work to develop themselves to the best of their ability. The essential point is that a tulku should strive to help others in whatever life situation they find themselves. It is out of such an aspiration to help all sentient beings that I have recognized many tulkus in my life and it is with this motivation that I recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku. If all beings seek to have this motivation, what need will there be for controversies and confusion over the motivations of others?

Penor Rinpoche
1999

CHANGCHUB SEM CHOG RINPOCHE

The precious Bodhicitta (awakened mind)

MA KYE PA NAM KYE GYUR CHIG

If unborn, may it arise,

KYE PA NYAM PA MED PA DANG

If generated may it never diminish,

GONG NEI GONG DU PHEL WAR SHOG

And may it remain ever-increasing!